Ben afternoon break
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Feb 9, 2006 16:09:42 GMT -5
Post by Ben afternoon break on Feb 9, 2006 16:09:42 GMT -5
Regarding people pining over "the meaning of it all". --in response to DrCank
I like to use this example again and again: Yes it is difficult to discern what is valid and what is not a lot of the time when people are discussing "the meaning of it all". However before you say, "there are no answers, give it up" you can at least give it a try. Let us remember the days when most people insisted the world was flat and those who thought it was round were even persecuted. It wasn't until someone actually got in a boat and didn't fall off the edge of the world that people reconsidered. First hand experience is the only way to know for sure.
Let's pretend you have never tased honey in your life. I'm standing here holding a pot of honey saying, "go ahead try it, its awsome, sweet and delicious". No matter what factors you consider there is no way you will know absolutely for sure until you stick your finger in and taste for yourself.
So I'm standing here saying there are answers. Your choice. Go ahead, its awsome, sweet and delicious.
Ben
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Feb 10, 2006 8:01:08 GMT -5
Post by DrCank on Feb 10, 2006 8:01:08 GMT -5
The danish paper that published the intial cartoon said that would publish the holocaust cartoons but after a day or so of thinking about they renigged on that offer.
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Feb 10, 2006 8:56:41 GMT -5
Post by DrCank on Feb 10, 2006 8:56:41 GMT -5
As for the world being round, there is kind of a misconception that has followed that story throughout the generations. Sailors and naturalists had assumed the world was round for decades before the church would allow them utter those words outloud. if you want you can experiment this yourself, all it reqiures is a large body of water and either a ship leaving port or coming into it.
If the world was flat as the geocentric church of that age was claiming as a ship left port and sailed out into open seas, the ship would just appear to shrink to your eye(get smaller and smaller till it was to small to decern). but anyone whom has tried this experiment knows that, that's not how it happens. the gets smaller but it also appears to sink into the water, so infact the last thing you see is the tip of the ship mast. at that point you are actually seeing the curvature of the earth and confirming to your own eyes the indeed the world is round. ( it works well with binoculars).
The point is, if you follow the facts you can gather, your observstions, evetually the answers will present themselves. but if you just go out searching for the answers you can never be sure of how sound your conclusions are. lets say you offered me same honey and I never have never seen honey before:
first I look at; The texture doesn't seem that appealing, my eye equates it with sap from a pine tree and i don't like the taste of sap.
Second I take smell of it, I never quite smelled this before but it is sweet smelling like many flowers I have smelled in the past, but I don't eat flowers.
But I take your your word on it and I trust you so I put some in my mouth.
The honey settles on my tongue and brushes up against my G-protein-coupled receptors (GPCRs) (sweet tastebuds) a chain reaction occurs on the cellualr level leading to the activation of adenylyl cyclase resulting in the formation of cyclic AMP which produces a given amount of ATP (biologic energy) which in turn travels up my nueral system (Nueron by neuron) to the brain and stimulates a receptor in a particluar cellular cluster that indicates sweet in my memory.
this all leads me to verbalize "Man, that is sweet and delicious. Thankyou for the honey I relley appriciated it"
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Feb 10, 2006 9:15:15 GMT -5
Post by degijames on Feb 10, 2006 9:15:15 GMT -5
I saw the daily show suggest anne frank and hitler as secret lovers. pedephililia, love hate sounds catholic based to me. Anyway: Welcome to the year 2006. this is the year when shit finally happens across the board, and premature settlements in the west have oppurtunity written all over them. Degicank has struggled fiercly the last three years to remain focused on a vision. My friends and brothers now is the time we need to set up a Limited Liability Corporation. In 2006 Degicank will be a household name in the fifth largest City in the United States. We have the entire city branch and its splinter cell shadow operation to thank for building and dreaming and never compromising individual ideas and directions. Within three to five years the same will be true in the Nations Freest City. The City of San Francisco. April will see The Founder turn 30 and a breif visit from the Epsilon Team leader to visit the Degicank Pebble Beach Encampment. The rest of Feb will see more improvements in the Philly quadrant with Operation "Build that House" and "Drink that Beer" taking full stride after key injuries were susstained during Livinia's 25th B-Day party last saturday. Tonight in philly Caleb has a ticket for me That I may not be able to use for Supergrass at The TLA on South Street. If you're in the Philly branch offices reading this contact him via text messageing the appropriate extention. In other news Degifaithful Madonna has a new video out click below to see a 40 year old MILF javascript:mp.playlist('video-browse', 'playlist:music.newvideos.', '', '', '1463333');Peace
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Ben interesting perspective
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Feb 13, 2006 12:08:59 GMT -5
Post by Ben interesting perspective on Feb 13, 2006 12:08:59 GMT -5
not to beat a dead horse but:
An essay I heard on NPR this morning brought out some interesting points about freedom of speech vs. censorship (relating and relevant to the offending cartoons).
The essay cited several cases where religious groups have protested "offensive" materials released by major media here in the US. The gist of it was "why is everyone freaking out that some of the Muslim people are protesting in this way when it happens right here in the US quite frequently". Some of the cases it cited are:
-The picketing Christians did for the Passion of Christ movie
-The success of several Christian groups lobbying to get a children's show off the air where in the show a fictional preacher "talks" with the spirit of Jesus.
-The protest of Christian groups against a TV show that had a gay preacher as on of the characters
-The success of Christian groups lobbying to cut US Federal funding to the arts after the fambous elephant dung Mary piece and the crucifix encased in urine (Philly artist no less)
The essay cited several others that I can't remember mostly because of the bay bridge rush hour traffic. Had it not been for the driving simulator games in the arcade when I was a kid I would surely be at a great loss out there in the am.
The greatest suprise I had after listening was realizing that the protests and lobbying of the groups in most cases resulted in censorship. The facts on the US Federal funding for the arts show funding is still only a minute fraction of what it used to be. It was the above mentioned case that originally resulted in the funding cuts.
I guess its OK to censor major media for religious depictions here in the US if they are supposedly negatively portraying Christianity. I am sure it would be similar for Islam if there were Muslims on K street in DC (major lobbying center).
Interesting eh?
By the way. The first curvature of the earth proofs came from land experiments that used rods / shadows and distances. Galileo repeated them.
Ben
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Feb 13, 2006 15:48:05 GMT -5
Post by Joe on Feb 13, 2006 15:48:05 GMT -5
Remeber folks don't trust NPR: I saw a great Noam Chomsky movie last night and he describe how NPR is the most controlled form of media in the US. He told about how he was only aloud on if he prewrote and prerecorded what he would say. Then on the day it was supposed to be aired, all things considered anounced it coming up but it never came on because a "higher up" called in to have chomsky removed.
-I wonder about the outrage if there was a cartoon of Jesus and preists molesting little boys while pope JPII looked the other way and Pope Ratsinger Hieled hitler in his nazi uniform?
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Feb 13, 2006 16:18:21 GMT -5
Post by Bill on Feb 13, 2006 16:18:21 GMT -5
There probably would be outrage, and riots, but would there be suice bombings? Possibly.
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Feb 14, 2006 3:01:38 GMT -5
Post by Ben duBois on Feb 14, 2006 3:01:38 GMT -5
Suicide bombings? Depending on who the offended group is. I think it would be a rare item indeed to have a member of any established "democratized" society commit to a sure death situation these days.
Isn't it interesting that the anti-war movement in the USA hasn't taken that crucial extra step ever since the draft was eliminated? I am sure if it were reinstated people would care a lot more about our relations and actions outside of the boarders. Imagine if you were required to risk your life for the current administration. No friggin way man.
*** -I forgot to mention the time when Sinad O'Connor tore up the Pope's photo -- Free speech? Technically yes.
From what I can gather there is no way to know if what media dishes out is true unless you were actually at the event. Now that's speaking in absolutes, black and white. It kinda ties in nicely with the one of the general themes that has run in this thread: Trust absolutes - yes, second hand knowledge not based on direct experience - maybe or No.
For example: If Joe told me that he levitated yesterday I would think it was amazing and based on my experience of Joe I would believe him (second hand knowledge gained without direct experience). A scientist would most likely squelch his claim unless Joe could actually produce an absolute proof.
I think if you solely rely on factual evidence (especially in cases where that evidence cannot be readily or easily produced) you can wind up greatly limiting yourself. It is a common theme when dealing with spiritual matters. The most reoccuring deadlock when talking about spiritual matters seems to be, "show me and I will believe". I have found in my experience with spiritual matters there is a level of blind faith involved especially in the beginning stages of one's spiritual growth. On the Sufi path we call it, "taking your chance". As time goes on if one is willing to take that chance, from what I have seen and experienced, the proof comes later. Most of the time that proof cannot be shared in the way of factual evidence. So the rhetoric flys.
I can equate it to a scientific theory or hypothysis. One uses the information they have on hand to forcast what they think will happen in an experiment. Because X is this and Y is this, Z must be true. So they take a chance, give it a shot. In the end they may or may not discover another bit of truth and based on that truth they can find another truth, etc. building on itself. If a scientist was not willing to even try as in "there are no answers, give it up" or even "show me and I'll believe (relying on an external source to produce the truth for them)" there would be a deadlock. It is in the fundamental nature of scientists to search for answers. Scientists and spiritualists are very similar in nature. They both want to know how things work, the nature of things. They differ when it comes to qualifying "proof".
Since a lot of beginning to mid level spiritual matters cannot be proven unless one directly experiences it themselves, the ones who rely heavily on factual evidence greatly decrease the chances of gaining spiritual knowledge they can rely on. Not every spiritual person can get up and walk on water so the others can have their proof.
The process for your average spiritualist to prove their point with "factual" information (information that falls under the scientific qualification) takes longer, and requires patience and openess from the one seeking proof.
With that said, here is a pretty thorough personal account of mine that touches on blind faith, proof based on rhetorical factors, and scientific proof:
Why do people search for answers? Some are seekers by nature, very curious. Some experience something in their lives that sparks a questioning. Some just flat out need a solution in matters of life and death. This account originates from the last one mentioned.
"The Nature of Proof" State College 2001, 1025 Metz. Ave Conventional methods of healing had failed to remedy my life threatening disease symptoms (there is the need for answers). I began to also exhaust the popular modern alternative methods of healing: Accupuncture, Herbs, Massage, Cranial / Sacral Therapy, Aromatherapy, Macrobiotics, Applied Kinesiology, Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy, Brennan Science "energy" healing, Remote Brennan Science "energy" healing, Frequency Generation, Yoga, Qi-Gong, Colonic Irrigation (Yikes!), Meditation in various forms, Homeopathy, and a few others. I found out that yes there are a lot of alternatives out there that don't work very well and yes it can seem at times that no amount of searching will yeild the answers. Given the need however it was impossible for me to stop searching. I was very open to entertaining anyone's point of view and tried everything full on 100% (blind faith method). It was risky searching in this manner. Several of the things I tried nearly killed me. So along comes Sufism (Shadhiliyya Sufism in particular).
It was at first just another possible option. The bonus was the man telling me about it's possible benefits was and still is one of the top five people I trust on the planet (there's the rhetorical factor proof method). So when he sent me a text entitled "Music of the Soul" I began by opening fully to the chance of it and pretended that everything in the book was true. The book provided a basic method of spiritual development as well as supplemental chapters for advanced studies.
I followed the protocol to a T. Hand writing the chapters, doing meditation-like exersises, and implementing the resulting knowledge into my life. It was 3 months of nothing until one fateful day during one of the meditation exersises I felt a sensation I never felt before in my life. A force built inside my body, moved on its own accord within my body, then released. The release physically resulted in muscle spasms and increased body temperature (there's your scientific). So, I thought, there is something to this stuff after all.
As I advanced through the chapters more interesting accounts similar to the aforementioned occured with increasing frequency. With each personal experience my trust in the method increased and I was no longer pretending everything in the book was true, I began to know everything in the book was true.
Here is where it gets interesting for the scientists: A year and a half of studies had passed. My personal experience of the subject thoroughly convincing me of the validity of the content but still aside from an occasional scientific fact here and there it was still lacking in the that area until... 115lbs, chronic fungal infection of the pericardium (rare indeed!), fungal infection in sinuses / ears / brain (not looking so good), 9 documented pathogenic bacterial strains infecting the GI tract, liver counts similar to someone with hepititis, elevated candida antibodies in the blood (proof of severe immune disfunction due to pathogen). All on file, Geisinger Medical Group, Bellefonte, PA.
With no medication, all of the above vanished, in two weeks. 50lbs gained in weeks, infections resolved, immune counts normal, liver counts normal. All on file, Geisinger Medical Group, Bellefonte, PA.
What happened? Refer to Accounts of healing thread. Medically, a spontaneous resolution to the above conditions is unheard of.
So to save the leg work: Here is a jar of honey, its sweet, delicious, and incredible. Sure you might agree based on the above but still you'll just never know absolutely, positively for sure until you stick your own finger in and taste.
There are a few cases where someone shoves the honey down your throught. A rare blessing indeed. But by and large you just have to take the chance and see what happens.
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Feb 14, 2006 12:56:55 GMT -5
Post by Bill on Feb 14, 2006 12:56:55 GMT -5
Ben, I do not not know of any documented cases of suicide bombings due to the cartoons, that was an a bad assumption on my part. I should not have made that assumption. From what I've seen in the media, from many trusted sources (in my mind), there has been a lot of violence and bombings (not necessarily suicide) due to the cartoons. I have some comments on the account of healing thread too, which is here if anyone wants to read: planet22.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=members&action=display&n=1&thread=655
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Feb 14, 2006 13:02:57 GMT -5
Post by DrCank on Feb 14, 2006 13:02:57 GMT -5
The violoence poured over into Pakistan today,whom suprisingly (up to yesterday) kept their hands clean during this entire episode. I know I heard last night that one of the papers in Pakistan was going to run the cartoons in todays press, but the last I heard the international community was trying to talk to the paper out of it. My guess would be that they ran the comics this mourning.
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Feb 14, 2006 15:09:20 GMT -5
Post by DrCank on Feb 14, 2006 15:09:20 GMT -5
The western Media is taking a lot of heat lately for not impressing on the world the beauty of Islam. I don't understand where exactly that message is being lost, oh wait maybe this picture will help. Pakistan today. Side Note: two Pakistani citizens have already died in today's Clashes. If your interested Check it out: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4708848.stmDon't Forget Freedom of Press is our first amendment only twenty-six more to catch up with the U.S.
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Feb 18, 2006 1:24:52 GMT -5
Post by Joe on Feb 18, 2006 1:24:52 GMT -5
"Beutyb of Islam", I don;t think any of the gods would be sad about a KFC destroyed. -he media is doing a great job at reporting the riots and muslims killing people over cartoons, but if you read carefully you'll see the peaceful protest didn't kill anyone, it was the cops shooting into the crowds that is causing death. This includes an 8 year old boy shot by the cops in the Peshawar, Pakistan riot. Don't you think we would have burned the municiple building down if the cops had shot dirty vegas at the weed protest in PSU? -al-Madhi, hurry up and get here! -1st rule: One interpretation is that the first rule of degicank is "never stop". -"ploy to further the agenda", how many danish flags do you think are usualy just laying around in Islamabad? -the guy with the sack in that Escher picture always seemed shady to me. What's in the sack? -tv the same as religion . Big Box Church. Remeber there is a big difference between religion and spirituality. Rememeber "hip hop you don't do it, you be it, you can't confine it, you free it." Ben cleary said, "impose the standards of the Law only on yourself." -I'll trade you a copy of the Y2K6 Econocank for a left handed smokeshifter and a bucket of steam. -TWR, Unless there has been a major shift in protocol of heirarchy the team epsilon leader is still the Chief Tech. -Supergrass AWESOME! Supergrass is a true cornerstone in the foundation of the degicank temple. As Dr. Cank said, "remeber the back of the bus" to get back on track. -"suicide bombings" again the protestors so far have been killed by cops directy or as a result of firering tear gas into crowds to start stampedes. -It's too bad us christians, jews and muslims have our heads to far up our own asses to notice the 180,000 murdered so far in Sudan. The earthquakes and huricains are a major concern, but nature is not to messed with. Government sponsered genocide is something that can be prevented. -Ben I levitated once during meditation when I was a teenager. I got scared because I relized I hadn't been breathing "fear is the mind killer" and crashed back into my body. I haven't attempted levitation on the 14 years since because I worry it is a quick path to the afterlife. How can I get a copy of "Music of the Soul", I need it to help cure my ingrown toenail.
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Feb 18, 2006 3:04:41 GMT -5
Post by JOE on Feb 18, 2006 3:04:41 GMT -5
Hey TWR: Job 13:1
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